Love you too Mimi!

I do not do x, y, and z thinking clearly ahead of time how I can go to confession to tell my sins…it doesn’t work like that for me. I am sure there were times in my youth I may have thought along those immature lines, but as a spiritually maturing person, I don’t put 2 + 2 together like that…I may sin, but it is never easy for me to go to confession as it may seem to those who do not. I appreciate this great Sacrament, but I do go through some “purgatory” just getting there.

Simply because the Lord wants to hear from us should not make anyone feel that they are denying Christ as Saviour.
How can you see purification as being “part of Heaven?” Where does Scripture state anything like that? I am truly interested.

There is plenty of Scripture about works and prayers.
I absolutely disagree with you that they count for nothing…I believe even Jesus Himself taught us how to pray. What would be the point of teaching us how to pray if it counts for nothing, Lorna…pretty strong statement.

As to the Orthodox understanding of Tertullian, I believe it to be “he wrote some good things, but ultimately was in error” :)

I love you, Deb, and am in awe of your apologetics skill.

What you say doesn’t make just or fair sense at all.

Not that mercy and grace are fair either. Mercy is not getting what we deserve, and grace is getting what we do not deserve -what we haven’t earned – salvation.

Scripture says that grace is not a license to sin. The fact that Paul wrote it shows that it is tempting. (I can do this x, y, z, even though I know it’s sinful because either a) the priest will grant me absolution next week – or b) Jesus’ blood is enough anyway

but the point is that we will feel pretty uncomfortable face to face with His glory – we already do – and there will be purification but I believe that’s part of heaven – part of being in the glory – not as I’ve already said some waiting room.

Scipture says no-one can see me and live – and dying to oneself is part of that purification in heaven. There will be no more me. It’s not a sort of heavenly gin palace where I’ll sit around with my friends. It’s a place of 24 hour worship of God because that’s all we’ll desire to do.

I’m probably not explaining what I believe well – or even accurately- but I do think the RC dogma about purgatory is mistaken. Jesus’ poured out blood IS enough. Works and prayers count for nothing, sacrifice too. Jesus is enough.

To deny that is to deny the essence of my faith in Jesus Christ as saviour.

Peace xx

” (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” – John 20-21-23

I appreciate that you may not wish to become involved in further discussion here, and I thank you for your contribution thus far.

The thing is, that if you oppose my position, then I don’t have a problem with that. I respect your right to think differently, I’m just interested in why you do so. I don’t call that debate, I call it dialogue.

You see yourself as being stained, I see myself in gratitude of my cleansing through Christ’s blood.

I don’t make a habit of entering into debates on blogs, I just wanted to make a different look at Lorna’s points.

Of course God forgives, that has never been my argument. As someone who regularly examines their conscience and confesses their sins I take my own sin very seriously, and my need of forgiveness. It is because I am ever aware of my sinfulness that I am aware of my great need of cleansing.

I may be wrong here, but you seem to be saying that no matter what you do wrong in this life, if you are sensitive to the workings of the Spirit within you,you will be bought to repentence and then because you are forgiven, you will be made sinless and then able to enter heaven at the point of your death. Is that right?

That’s right,it’s my understanding that Tertullian left the Church and we’d pretty much have had a hard time canonising him, so no, he’s not a canonised Saint.

I was more wondering about the EO viewpoint on him and I’m grateful for your answering the E.O position. Thanks!

I’ve also heard the explanation of Tollhouses in the past with regard to the soul after death.

It was my understanding that thought E.O do not believe in defining a doctrine of purgatorial refining, they do in fact believe in final purification. If you believe that the soul does not go straight to hell or straight to heaven at the point of death, then to where does the soul go and more specifically, for what purpose?