Pro Choice? You mean NO Choice..not for the baby at least!

***Warning*** Offensive*** Images*** alternative title ~ Live and let Die

Live and let die may well be the name of a Bond movie, but it’s also the situation of mother’s who opt for life while their babies are forcefully taken from their wombs and culled.

I wasn’t intending to blog about this this evening, I was hoping to shut down my computer and pray my Rosary after putting the children to bed, but needs must, as they say.

For those unaware, there’s a bit of a discussion going on over at THIS place. I didn’t know anything about it until yesterday when I visited THIS other place…and now it seems that my Blog is getting a heap of hit’s because i’m linked in THIS blog post. It also seems that anonymous faceless, blogless people like to leave derogatory comments in what has now become my spambox.

Wander over there patrons of ukok’s place, and when you come back, tell me if you think I’m saying anything that any ‘good christian’ wouldn’t (unless they happened to be pro-choicers!) …because I’d hate to let the side down.

For unblinckered vision follow the links below.

To find out more about Abortion click here

For images of aborted babies click here -Warning, these images may cause offence and/or distress

Catholics against abortion

Scientific article examining the point that conception begins?

What does abortion really look like?

Have you had an abortion and would like to talk to somone about your experiences ? click here

and here

and here too

God Bless.

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57 Responses to Pro Choice? You mean NO Choice..not for the baby at least!

  1. submarina says:

    I’ll tell you why I’m so ferociously annoyed with you (and, no doubt, why everyone else is).

    CECILY DID NOT HAVE AN ELECTIVE ABORTION. Even your church allows medical intervention when the mother is in grave danger. She no more “aborted” her wanted, loved son than any woman who has had an ectopic pregnancy which threatened her fertility and her life “aborted” their foetus.

    When you tell her she “initiate(d) a willful act of murder” you are completely wrong. Her organs were failing, she was in a critical condition and she was hours from death.

    When you criticise “the method you chose of ensuring your baby’s demise” you are attacking a GRIEVING mother who has been through hell, who has taken an action your Pope would not see unreasonable.

    The method she chose ensured against HER demise. It was her or the foetus. Nobody can tell Cecily she made the wrong ‘decision’, or should.

    I maintain, you owe her a big apology.

  2. ukok says:

    Here is where the two of us differ; as far as I am concerned, though the words may have caused pain (that was not my intention) they were in fact, truthful and reflected my moral position on this matter.

    When one consent’s to the removal of ones foetus one is, without question, technically consenting to the proceedure of removal.

    I am not, and can not condone this. To take a life, is to comitt murder.
    This is my own belief, and I believe that I am entitled to it, whether you agree with it or not.

    I stated a fact.

    I did not state anything that was untrue. I also did not comment in any way upon the callousness of the act, simply the manner in which it was being presented throughout the blogosphere.

    As for the apology..if it makes us all feel better, then sure, I’ll apologise, but I can only apologise for hurting your friend with my words…I can not in effect, apologise for stating a truth.

    Do you understand the finer point of what I am trying to convey?

    God Bless.

  3. submarina says:

    Your moral position isn’t toeing your Church’s line, then.

    Cecily had to have her foetus taken from her womb to save her life. The Catholic church is completely, utterly, 100% behind this. The foetus could not have survived even if Cecily herself had died- it was only 20 weeks old, 4 weeks younger than the absolute cut off of viability. She did nothing, NOTHING morally wrong.

    Let me ask you a question- what would you have done? Would you have consented to the D&C which would have saved your own life, or would you have just given up and died along with the foetus?

  4. submarina says:

    Your moral position isn’t toeing your Church’s line, then.

    Cecily had to have her foetus taken from her womb to save her life. The Catholic church is completely, utterly, 100% behind this. The foetus could not have survived even if Cecily herself had died- it was only 20 weeks old, 4 weeks younger than the absolute cut off of viability. She did nothing, NOTHING morally wrong.

    Let me ask you a question- what would you have done? Would you have consented to the D&C which would have saved your own life, or would you have just given up and died along with the foetus?

  5. Anonymous says:

    good gods, learn how to properly use the ‘s, you idiot

  6. ukok says:

    submarina, are you a faithful Catholic? Do you read and know the Catechism of the Catholic Church? All 2865 entry texts…or just the ones on abortion ?

    I will post those pertaining to the subject of our comment box dialogue forthwith

    God Bless.

  7. submarina says:

    I’m not a Catholic, no. However I have read and studied the whole Catechism while deciding just why I don’t believe in what it teaches.

    What I find both disturbing (and perversely amusing) here though is that you’re ignoring genuine Catholic teaching on the subject. In the eyes of your Church, Cecily DIDNT have an abortion. I’ll post the evidence under your catechism posting.

  8. Lisa says:

    The picture is quite disturbing. Look at the grimace on the baby’s face to the left—eee, gads!! I’ve seen this picture before and it hurt me then the way it hurts me now. Those poor babies. Those poor mothers. I’m absolutely, positively certain in my heart that if a woman knew the true and certainty horrors of abortion, she would not have one.

  9. Cecily says:

    Lisa, you’d be wrong.

    I do know the “true nature and horror” of abortion. I looked at the pictures.

    And I still know I made the right decision.

    Ukok, if you are uncomfortable with the link on my blog, let me know and I’ll take it down. You can email me at cecilyk@gmail.com and I will unlink you. I certainly don’t want you harrassed.

  10. ukok says:

    submarina, as you will see, in the post above my own, cecily post’s in response to Lisa ~

    ” Lisa, you’d be wrong.

    I do know the “true nature and horror” of abortion. I looked at the pictures.

    And I still know I made the right decision.”

    Thus,cecily clearly acknowledges that she herself made a ‘decision’. This is the fundamental crux of the dialogue that we are having…in effect, the word ‘choice’ comes to light in this matter…when we choose to do something, we take it upon ourselves to make a decision…and hence, we take the matter of life and of death, into our own hands, and take it out of God’s…that is effectively, where I’m ‘coming from’.

    I will however, be interested in reviewing your resources when you provide them.

    God Bless.

  11. ukok says:

    Lisa,

    I would tend to agree with you. Many women believe themselves to have rid themselves simply of a ‘mass of cells’, not of a life.

    We must pray for them all,the unborn, the mothers, those who work to achieve the evil of abortion. That those who abort (expel) their baby’s before they are able to survive out of their mothers womb, come to realise the gravity of their actions and the need for repentence.

    God Bless

  12. ukok says:

    cecily,

    thankyou for stopping by. No, I’m not at all uncomfortable with the link in your blog as long as discussion can remain civil. Though I would extend you no less a courtesy as I would expect to be given here.

    God Bless

  13. Holly says:

    Why does that prolife website only focus on late-term abortions? Late-term abortions are relatively rare, and are rarely performed if the mother’s health is not endangered.
    If you (the collective ‘you’ of those who are anti-choice) want to argue that life begins at conception and hence all abortion is equivalent to murder then go right ahead, but don’t show pictures of fully formed babies saying “this is abortion”. It is a cheap scare tactic.

    I feel the difference between the pro-choice and pro-life movements (besides the bleeding obvious), is that pro-choice people aren’t trying to tell others how to go about their lives.
    I could never have an abortion, I know that about myself. But who am I to say who should have an abortion? Who better than the woman herself knows if she is emotionally, physically and psychologically capable of having a child? If she believes she needs one, who am I to tell her she doesn’t?

    Not many people who have an unwanted pregnancy are emotionally capable of giving the child away for adoption, the end result being a lot of people who aren’t fit to be parents hold on to their children. As someone who was raised by terrible parents I can tell you, sometimes the idea of never being born is better than a crappy life.

  14. Julie D. says:

    It seems to me that people who say “I’d never have an abortion but who am I to tell someone not to have an abortion” are rather lukewarm about their convictions. If one believes that abortion is murder then that is equivalent to saying “I’d never murder anyone but who am I to say that someone else shouldn’t murder someone?” Bringing in socioeconomic factors, etc. does not really have any bearing if one believes it is murder.

    If one doesn’t believe it is murder … then I don’t know why you would care about abortion one way or the other. At least the adamantly pro-choice people are passionate in their beliefs. I don’t agree with them but I can admire them taking a stand and supporting it to the best of their abilities.

  15. ukok says:

    holly,

    I appreciate your pov, though I disagree with it.

    and here’s why;

    In response to your first point, there was more than one website that showed images of aborted unborn babies…many of the images on those sights ‘feature’ non-late term aborted baby’s…take another look, if you can’t find them, tell me and I’ll include a picture on my blog from one of those very sites.

    Now I have to ask you a question about that…what difference does it make whether or not an aborion is procured early or late term? Did you read the scientific article that I posted, did you read that it states that from the moment of conception, life occurrs that wouldn’t otherwise have been in existance ?

    What difference does it make then…do you believe that aborting a non-late term life is any less serious than a late term life ?

    I’m also a little confused about the point tha you are attempting to make about ‘cheap tricks’. A photograph of a deceased life can never be ‘cheap’ and it’s certainly not a ‘trick’…I wish it was all fantasy, but we both know it’s all too real. Please explain precisely what you mean by ‘cheap trick’?

    To the next point you make, about pro-lifers ‘trying to tell others how to go about their lives’…please tell me you are not serious about this statement!

    Abortion is this worlds direst legal act of murder…do you seriously expect those who value life to sit down and shut up about what they view as being the worlds biggest moral evil?

    The way I see it, pro-lifers are TOO passive. In the U.S alone, 1,370,000 abortions occur annually…compare that to how many pro-life news stories you read in your newspapers or see on your t.v screens…the pro-life movement is hardly ever heard in reality…because no one wants to hear it..we live in a world of moral evil. It’s the age of “I’ll do what I want and to hell with anyone else”.

    If you disagree tell me why. You base your pov upon your own experiences, whether in real time or in cyber time…I base abortion statistics on fact.

    Are you sure you’re not more concerned that women who have abortions are having their senibilities offended by being told that they have committed the most heinous of crimes, by people who aren’t going to keep quiet about what they believe?

    With reference to your other comment now ;

    “But who am I to say who should have an abortion? Who better than the woman herself knows if she is emotionally, physically and psychologically capable of having a child? If she believes she needs one, who am I to tell her she doesn’t?”

    ~ You (meaning anyone) don’t have to be a Christian to be a person of moral principles. Life, from it’s conception can be and indeed, should be, valued and cherished, until it’s natural end. Whether I am christian or humanist, atheist or buddhist…I can hold to that principle and be staunchly pro-life.

    I happen to be a Catholic pro-lifer, and I happen to be a faithful Catholic who lives in accordance to the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church. This adds another dimension to my pro-life perspective…because I adhere to the teachings of the Apostolic Church which means that I can look in the CCC or in CL to discover the exact doctrine, dogma or teaching on virtually any subject that I may encounter throughout my life.

    This is how I know that it isn’t up to one individual to determine whether or not to end the life within her womb. Sacred Scripture tells us that life is of the greatest importance, that it is not ours to take.

    We must honour the commandment to honour life. No one said life was easy, no one said that we wouldn’t have to suffer. I believe that by striving to uphold the commandments of our Creator, even in the greatest suffering and the most trying of ordeals, our faithfulness will be rewarded..if not in this life, then in the next.

    But we don’t stand a chance of getting there, if we can’t even acknowledge that life isn’t ours to snuff out.

    Like you say, women may not be emotionally, physically or psychologically capable of looking after a child when it is born… but what right has she to refuse to ‘suffer’ or be inconvenienced for just a short while, until a stable well adjusted family can take her baby into their lives as their own…babies can be taken from the mother as soon as they are born…if this is the least that she can do for her child, then let this be her gift to her baby, the gift of life!

    I have to go and do normal things for a while now, will write more as am able.

    God Bless.

  16. ukok says:

    Julie, very astute observations, thankyou for your input. I appreciate your response.

    God Bless.

  17. Holly says:

    I can assure you I am not lukewarm about my convictions. In fact, knowing that I couldn’t submit to an abortion myself makes me feel even stronger about a woman’s choice. The idea of an abortion is so terrible to me, and thus wouldn’t most women probably feel the same and have to feel utterly desperate to have an abortion?
    I called those photos cheap scare tactics because they featured fully formed babies. The overwhelming majority of abortions are performed when the baby is just a zygote, and doesn’t resemble a human being. I know that will make no difference to you, as you believe life begins at conception. But to myself and some others, it is just a group of cells at that point.
    I am a spiritual person, and so I believe God shall decide. Maybe he will judge the women harshly (in which case I hope he does judge the fathers just as harshly) but maybe he will forgive them their acts of desperation?
    Save the judgement or God, show others support and compassion.

    I would say more but I have to go to school. Thankyou for your civil discourse.

  18. ~m2~ says:

    well that goes to show you my bloglines suck because i totally missed this *firestorm* — i was off cleansing my burns from my recent one…

    wow. i wish i had more time to visit all those links, kiddo — i am terribly appalled, however, at the babies in the trashcan.

    black & white is a very effective medium, especially when the topic has (to some) so many shades of grey.

    peace.

  19. ukok says:

    Penni,

    I know that the picture is repugnant, but I was having so many hits from the pro-choice brigade ~( not to mention comments and email too – and just so it is clear, I am not referring to those with whom I am having a genuinely civil dialogue about this) ~that I felt it best to show abortion for what it truly is.

    God Bless.

    p.s. I feel sick to my stomache whenever I look at it too.

  20. ukok says:

    holly, didn’t see your comment before I posted to M2. I will respond later, but it’s early AM this side of the pond and haven’t time to reply at the moment.

    God Bless

  21. ukok says:

    holly,

    sorry I didn’t have time to respond earlier, but I have a little time now 🙂

    First, let me make it clear that I am not sitting in judgement of anyone. There is only One ultimate judge, and it’d His job to do that, not mine. On that we both agree.

    Let me ask you something, if I may.

    You seem to be saying that you believe it is okay to abort a ‘group of cells’ and that therefore an abortion does not constitute a grave offence against the Sanctity of Life…but (here’s the question) do you agree that that group of cells would not have been produced if sexual activity between male and female had not taken place ?

    In other words, that ‘group of cells’ can have no other means of coming to be, other than the process of fertilisation ?

    I look forward to *hearing* from you

    God Bless.

  22. om mother life force says:

    christians have no problem of killing 200, million [adult], people, and every animal, on the planet to the point of extinction, kill all the wales, kill all the birds, kill all the fish, christians kill and kill and kill–so you dont follow the bible!!!!!!!!!!

    [thow salt not kill] un less the pope tells you to and 2 million cathars,that were exterminated form the earth—-because they believed in a nother religion, that your pope, didnt like.

    jews killed 23, million, arabs, on the death march, to the holy land headed by [ MOSES—THE MURDER ], becaus god suposedly told the jews that they had the right to kill any one on the planet that is not a jew!!!!

    so christions and jews are not, [giltless-in the mass-murdering department], when christans stop killing all the other peoples of the earth—because we are of a diferent faith—-then mabe you will have some credibility, in calling your selves

    [PRO-LIFE]!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    ________________________________

    WHEN IN DOUGHT!!!!ALLWAYS!!!!ABORT!!!!!.

    OM MOTHER LIFE FORCE
    OM GODDESS OF AVALON

    ONLY ONE LIFE FORCE

    FRED HEIDRICK

  23. ukok says:

    Fred, if I was trying to be ironic, I would tell you to ‘go get a life’, but I’m not, so i’ll simply ask you not to ‘shout’ your future comments and to get yur facts right before posting them please.

    When you want to have a grown up and less inflammatory discussion with me about this, then I will be pleased to participate. Let me know when that day comes.

    God Bless.

  24. Holly says:

    Yes, I agree that the group of cells would not have been produced if not for fertilisation. But in my mind (and I base this on nothing but my own beliefs), it is not yet a person. The cells have the potential to grow to form a baby. I don’t think it’s ‘okay’ to abort them, in the sense that I don’t think that the decision to abort at that stage should be made lightly.
    I guess my beliefs amount to:
    Early-pregnancy abortion is not murder because it is not yet a baby. While an abortion is undesirable, it’s the mother’s prerogative.
    Late-term abortion involves a baby, and should only be carried out if the mother is in grave danger.

    I can’t back up these beliefs with scripture or scientific reports. I just believe what I believe.

  25. om mother life force says:

    i have my facts right you just dont want to hear them .i have a life !!!, its you who like posting pictures of , dead humans on the web.

    you look up in the history books and in the 14 century???your popes exterminater the [cathar peoples], 2 million, because of ther faith.. go look it up, befor you say i am wrong.

    shower of dead babys

  26. ukok says:

    Fred,

    May I ask you where you get your information from…provide citations to support your ludicrous assertions please. I’ll be glad to look them over if you can provide me with the resources to do so.

    God Bless.

  27. om mother life force says:

    rerference [the legions of the cathars]

    http://www.gnosistraditions.faithweb.com

    http://www.phitar.ucsm.uk

    http://www.2.kenyoniedu/project/margin/cathy11.htm
    __________________________________, discovery chanel said ther were 2 million killed, the web sais there was only i million killed by [????pope the inocent11] mass murder from 1209—–to 1500
    the only crime of these people were that they were [VEGITARIANS] AND THEY dIDNT BELIEVE IN THE SACREMENTS…LOOK IT UP…see the truth of the chatholic churches , past inquisitions.

  28. ukok says:

    holly,

    thankyou for responding further.

    I know that you can’t back your belief’s up scientifically or Scripturally,(and I appreciate that you admit that this is so) so I’m wondering what you base your beliefs upon…other than your own opinion – I ask this as since you are a christian, you surely know (and believe)the following scripture –

    Proverbs 3:5-8 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;

    6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight. [a]

    7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.

    8 This will bring health to your body
    and nourishment to your bones.

    You see, as you concurred, ‘a group of cells’ has the potential to become a baby. It doesn’t have the potential to turn into a bat or a microwave…just a living being human.

    When you support abortion, you support the desire to assume power over anothers life, whether it is a fully formed baby is at this stage, irrelevent, because it only has the potential to ‘become’ a baby…and you no less take that life away whether you terminate it at 6 weeks, or at 6 months…just because it looks more like a baby at 6 months, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have the same right to life before it develops more physically recognisable features.

    The problem that we have in this age of depravity, is that there is little emphasis placed on the value of life.

    You say that terminating early is not murder, because it is simply the expulsion from the body of a group of cells…but you, by your own admission have posted that you know that life begins at conception. If you leave that group of cells well alone, approximately 9 months later you’re going to have a belly ache and a trip to ER…if you expel it..you get to visit ER a bit earlier and don’t come home with the baby.

    May I ask you something else, how do you reconcile your ‘liberal’ beliefs with your faith ?

    Do you attend a church, and if so, is this liberalist approach to moral matters par for the course in your denomination ?

    I’m genuinely intrigued, I have no wish to offend you.

    God Bless.

  29. ukok says:

    Fred, I want to respond, but I have to stop laughing first…it may take a while.

    God Bless.

  30. ukok says:

    Your post;

    “i have my facts right you just dont want to hear them .i have a life !!!, its you who like posting pictures of , dead humans on the web.

    you look up in the history books and in the 14 century???your popes exterminater the [cathar peoples], 2 million, because of ther faith.. go look it up, befor you say i am wrong.

    shower of dead babys”

    my response;

    Fred,

    ok, I’ve stopped laughing, sort of.

    With regard to your first link ; http://www.gnosistraditions.faithweb.com

    let me ask you, do you yourself hold to the tennet’s of gnosticism? If yes, which variety ?

    Are you aware that atheism is at the root of gnosticism, via a fling through the field of pantheism ?

    Do you subscribe to it ?

    If you are a christian, that should bother you, if you are a true gnostic, it obviously won’t.

    And hence your first source as a valid citation loses all credibility…it’s purely anti Catholic slander…which I’ve heard at least as many times as I’ve had mugs of steaming cappucino.

    Next

    with regard to your next link – http://www.phitar.ucsm.uk

    it won’t work. Google doesn’t recognise it as valid.

    Next

    with regard to http://www.2.kenyoniedu/project/margin/cathy11.htm

    that wasn’t recognised as valid either.

    Next.

    you believe everything you hear, see or read on the discovery channel? I can’t take that as a valid citation either, sorry.

    I thought you came here to discuss the hot topic of Abortion, and it seems you only came under the guise of it so that you could slam Catholicism. Expect a blog-post on the Inquisition in the next day or two, just for you and those like you who have deeply misinformed beliefs about such matters.

    God Bless.

  31. Holly says:

    I’m not sure if I would consider myself to be a Christian, as I do not hold much faith in the stories surrounding the life of Jesus Christ. I also rarely read the bible, as I believe it is not the word of God, but the word of men who wrote it. My parents are extremely left-wing atheists, so liberal tendencies come much more naturally to me than my faith, which somewhere along the way I picked up from my Anglican grandparents.
    I have never been baptised.
    I have never had my first communion.
    I have never had my confirmation.
    This doesn’t bother me.

    I believe in an understanding, loving God who wants us to be the best people we possibly can, to care for ourselves and one another. I believe he can forgive any sin, especially when the motive was not malice, but desperation. I would doubt it is an easy decision to choose an abortion, and I wouldn’t be suprised if some feel they are doing the best thing for their child by not having him/her be born, especially if they are poisoning their bodies with drugs or alcohol.

  32. alicia says:

    ukok, I have posted several items about the licitness of ending a pregnancy prematurely for maternal indications. You can search my blog if you are interested. The US conference of catholic bishops has put up some pretty clear guidelines.
    In my professional experience, a truly life threatening pregnancy is extremely rare. One that is so life threatening that it requires the pre-viability delivery of the child is almost unheard of in countries with modern medical care. I have not yet taken the time to read through Cecily’s story. I can’t speak to the medical facts of the case. I have to believe that she honestly thought that she had no real choice, but I have also seen some health care providers carefully slant the information they give patients to influence the decision. I hope and pray that this was not the case here.

  33. ukok says:

    Holly,

    Thankyou!

    Yes, I see more clearly where you are coming from now. I had a very similar outlook when I was in my teens and even in my twenties. But then my faith developed and I became more spiritually mature through the grace of God.

    I too, believe in a loving god who can forgive all sins…but He can only forgive the sins of those who repent of what they have done, not those that attempt to justify their actions. when we quit making excuses for ourselves, we humble ourselves before the Lord and the scales fall from our eyes.

    And here’s a tad bit of info, I was 35 when I got baptised! My parents thought that I had been baptised as a baby, but the Church of England priest only gave me a ‘naming ceremony’ it was discovered.

    Holly, may I ask you something else? Are you open to discussion about the (in my opinion) misinfomation you have been fed or have picked up about Sacred Scripture?

    God Bless.

  34. ukok says:

    alicia,

    I am very pleased to make your acquiantance and I will certainly check out your blog as you suggest.

    I have the same understanding as that which you have outlined here, that it is in the rarest of instances that a pregnancy can be terminated licitly.

    I also believe that there are instances where one might ‘hide’ behind the necessity of ‘medical intervention’ to ensure the discontinuation of a pregnancy.

    I pray this is not the case also.

    Thankyou for your contribution, alicia.

    God Bless.

  35. Holly says:

    I am always open to learning, but I must tell you now that I disagree strongly with many aspects of Catholicism, such as their objections to birth control (especially considering the AIDs epidemic), and preventing women from becoming priests.
    I also believe that good works matter the most, even if you do not accept Jesus as your Lord and savior. After all, there are millions of people who have never heard of Jesus, would God condemn them for that reason alone even if they lead virtuous lives?

  36. om mother life force says:

    hi

    im not a christian [what your point]?????im a proud hindu, 30 years of meditation.

    wether the links worked or not, only 3 months on the computor…they were general references, to the subject of [ cathars] that came up on the surch page.

    the point was , how can christians be pro life if they , murder millions of other people of diferent faiths, over the last 2000 years.?????

    you said i was wrong in my facts and if you go to

    and type in [cathars] you will get the same results,i did, irrespective of my poor typing skills.
    _________________________________

    why i am here, is i find the showing , of dead human bodys, to [children] that surf to your web sight [disgusting].

    and i find the christian church as being hipicritical, that they bich about abortion to save the life of women, and have practiced mas murder of millions of other [adult people] over the last 2000 years trying to exterminate , all other religions, from the face of the earth.

    “[the christian cult of world domination]” to quote my self–the great commition of war on other faiths.
    you complain , that we kill babys , when the christian church , has been at war , with, [adult humans] of other faiths, and has no problem with killing millions of us, because we believe in a difrent version of god than you do.

    jesus said [love one another]….not , kill hindues, not kill jews,, remember the crusades, were jews and muslems were slaterd, by the christians?? not kill buddists, not kill pagans.

    that is the point of my blog, worshiping [life force] as the goddess., and honnoring all form of life force energy, not just, the christians.

    om mother life force
    om goddess of avalon

    only one life force

    om fred heidrick-hindu

  37. ukok says:

    holly and Fred,

    I am very pleased to learn that you are open to learning and y’know, it’s ok to disagree with things just as long as you are aware of all the facts and not what you ‘think’ the facts are

    Would you like to take this to email so that I can discuss this in more depth or would you like me to address your concerns here on the blog – I would begin a new post for each misunderstanding and appreciate your giving me your input on each topic.

    This comment box conversation has spread from abortion to the Aids epidemic from the Catholic viewpoint to Gnosticism, and I think we could deal with it better elsewhere and less confuse other visitors who find it hard to follow one continous thread of conversation.

    For this reason from now on I will only discuss the topic outlined in the corresponding post.

    Just let me know below if you want to continue with our dialogue in the manner I have suggested. I hope that it’s an affirmative!

    God Bless.

  38. Arm chair ethicist says:

    Even in cases of threat to the mother – a direct abortion is not permitted. That means, a D&E on a live fetus is never justified. Early induction is rarely warranted if danger to mother’s life (note, life – not future fertility or mental health) is imminent, but you have to ask yourself just how imminent is the danger if there is time to induce the baby . . .?

  39. Anonymous says:

    Just why are there so many complaints about the image in this post? If you have a problem with the images, you should have a problem with the women who terminate their dear little lives.

  40. pro-all-life says:

    Odds are the photo is a fake, as so many of those types of photos have been proven to be. If you look closely, you can actually tell that it’s “off” in a few instances. Photos like that have been used as scare tactics by the prolife movement for decades. The truth is photos like that only undermine the good prolifers (the ones who are genuinely interested in helping women faced with all the issues that lead to abortion and who are willing to commit themselves to eliminating the issues that lead to abortion, not the people who hide behind harsh words of condemnation, fake photos and antagonistic picket signs).

    When I see every Catholic prolifer take Pope Benedict’s words and apply them to war and famine and domestic violence and violent crime, then I’ll start taking them seriously. I don’t have much respect for people who blow a lot of hot air about the dear, darling little fetuses but who support unjust wars, the death penalty, and who don’t actively work towards ending hunger, poverty and violence around the world.

    Talk and prayers are cheap. Action always speaks louder than words.

  41. ukok says:

    Thanks for your input.

    I used to be a photographer, so I’d appreciate it if you could tell me where the picture is a ‘little off’.

    Thanks.

    You are right about actions speaking louder than words though. The action of taking a life, is more heinous than any word ever spoken.

    God Bless.

    p.s. take a look at the images in the links provided and tell me if they are a little ‘off’ as well, won’t you .

  42. pro-all-life says:

    Some of the overlaps in the original picture are obviously photoshopped.

    As for the other links, those are the ones that have already been debunked. Many of those “aborted” fetuses are actually miscarriages and still-borns and are taken at hospitals, not abortion clinics.

    The point is that the more useless prolifers (the ones only interested in calling post-abortive women names and heaping condemnation upon them) are known for using these kinds of titillating, sensationalist photos in order to “scare” people into taking their side.

    Well, what good does that do? What does that change? Nothing.

    If prolifers don’t work to remove the reasons why women abort, you will never end abortion (and you’ll never end abortion completely, so you might as well start doing something constructive instead of shrieking extreme rhetoric at people who have heard it so often they’re not paying attention anymore). What the world is seeing is a bunch of people who gush on and on about the sanctity of life, but who deny basic human dignity to people who are different from them, who will kill innocent strangers in an unjust war, who will kill via lethal injection men and women who no longer present a danger to society, who turn their sons and daughters out into the streets for not being perfect, who protect and defend child molestors and rapists, who live in abundance (compared to the majority of the world) and yet who allow thousands of innocents to die each day from lack of food, water, shelter and basic medical care, and who close their eyes and ears to the violence going on right in their own backyards.

    The reason people don’t value unborn life is because they’re well aware of the fact that human life in general is pretty damned worthless in this world, and no less so to the more extreme prolifer, who would probably run you over with his or her SUV on the way to the local protest.

    Put down the signs and the bullhorns and the scary, fake pictures and start valuing all life. Then maybe someone will listen. In the meantime, people have eyes and they see the real truth. Why should they value a life they can’t see when their parents, their bosses, their clergy, their government, etc., never gave a hot damn about theirs?

  43. ukok says:

    p.a.l
    Please cite exactly the sources that debunk the links that you refer to as being photoshopped to death.

    Thanks.

    You are making some severe generalisations on my blog, and I would like you to support them.

    For instance, you bemoan that pro-lifers ‘gush on’ about abortion but support the war…actually, I’m a pacifist, so where you get that idea from I don’t know, and a lot of pro-lifers are pacifists, by nature of their passison to support the sanctity of life, whether they are religious or not doesn’t enter into the equation.

    What’s amusing to me is just how many people have posted anti Catholic garbage here when the discussion is about Abortion. If you (general) stumbled across a similar dialogue on an atheist web site, would you (general)slander their atheist leanings? I doubt it. Catholics are an easy mark.

    God Bless.

    p.s. I agree with you that we need to address the reasons that women choose abortion, they are uneducated in many instances and are rarely offered alternative ways of dealing with the situation of their unexpected and unwanted pregnancy.

  44. Holly says:

    I am happy to continue the discussion either here or via email. You can reach me at zaazaa_cheeseburger@hotmail.com

  45. Arm chair ethicist says:

    For Pro-all-life (et al)

    Sadly, it’s the last vestige of a defense to claim that what you are seeing is really not what you are seeing. Sigh. Just go to any pediatric pathology website, particularly those featuring babies with defects who were aborted at various gestations. Geez, do you think the pathologists are in on the conspiracy to make unborn babies seem like real developed and developing human beings? Are you really that afraid to admit the truth? Abortion kills babies.

  46. ukok says:

    Holly,
    thanks for getting back to me on that. will see what I can arrange as time permits.

    God bless.

    arm chair ethicist,

    I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your contribution. I ditto all the comment’s that you have made thus far and I thank you for them.

    God Bless.

  47. pro-all-life says:

    Arm chair ethicist…

    I AM PROLIFE!!!!!!!!!!!

    What am I defending? Abortion? Where did I say that?

    Can you people not read? If I don’t toe the party line and yes every other prolifer to death, I’m not really pro life?

    If I value all life I’m not really prolife?

    Even if I believed for one second the pictures were real, what difference does that make? What does that tactic accomplish? Who does it help? What changes?

    You’ve been using the pics for decades. Have the reasons women abort disappeared because of them? Does society value life anymore because of them?

    It’s all talk and hot air, dude. Nothing but sensationalism and scare tactics.

    When I see the same people carrying those signs or posting those pics in their blogs taking in a pregnant girl and supporting her through her pregnancy AND BEYOND, then I’ll believe people who use those pictures are prolife. Until then, all I see when I see those pictures is another shallow, superficial attention whore.

    Believe me, I’ve learned, though, about some prolifers.

    Actions will ALWAYS speak louder than words. People will show you who they are and what they really stand for every time they turn around.

    You just showed me.

    Good day.

  48. ukok says:

    Jane,

    I just responded to your email. Let me know if you want to do this here or in privacy, because I though you said you wouldn’t respond further on my blog?

    God Bless.

  49. om mother life force says:

    no, on the e-mail, you know were my blog is, just click on , om mother life force, im not! out to change any ones opinions…i said my peace, i dont like the tramatizing of children , by the showing them , sensational, images, that only adults should see[weather they were real or un real]….have a good, and great! life:)

    om mother life force
    om goddess of avalon

    only one life force

    om fred heidrick ,hindu

  50. Arm chair ethicist says:

    Pro-all-life

    Again, all you have to do is look closely and try to *see* what you are looking at instead of dismissing it. You cannot find the many pro-lifer’s who take women in, who give substantially to orgs that do, who themselves adopt children from women who would abort? Well, what more can I say. Look more closely. They are everywhere. It proves to me that you don’t know many pro-lifers.

    By the way, sad commentary in your comment. When pictures of children who were killed does not scare us, are just dismissed as “sensationalism” . . . because table runners make for better conversation . . . do you feel good about that? What are you prepared to do about that? Will you be taking someone into your home today? (shaking my head)

  51. Arm chair ethicist says:

    Oh, and by the way, if you had spent any time actually talking with young women who abort, you’d know that money is not typically the issue. The issue is, “I’m not ready – I don’t want to have a baby yet”. Inviting her into your home may show her what a sacrificial and generous act is, but it likely won’t help her to see that her own selfishness is leading her to the point of actually killing another human person. See, it’s way deeper than money, honey.

  52. pro-all-life says:

    Uh…

    arm chair ethicist…

    I’m a house mother at a home for pregnant girls.

    I know exactly what I’m talking about. I know exactly how many prolifers are willing to volunteer their time, their homes, and, most importantly, their hearts.

    And I know that the people who scream names and wave banners are never the same people who volunteer their time, homes and hearts.

    See, it’s way deeper that spouting a lot of hot air from your arm chair, honey…

  53. Arm chair ethicist says:

    Just for the record, how did you go from being unhappy that ukok posted pictures on here to making the crass generalization that the 1% of pro-lifers who “protest” at abortion mills are even here reading?

    Gee, it’s nice that you are a “house” mother. Good for you. Yes, you get to take the women after they have bravely and unselfishly decided to carry their babies and then pat yourself on the back while you knock down other “pro-life” contributions. Well, thankfully, then, you are active, since you are the only one who makes worthwhile contributions. Yes, at least there’s that.

    I don’t particularly think it is effective to “protest” at abortion mills, either. But is this what the thread was about? Wasn’t it about you not wanting to admit that pictures of 1/2 of the victims of abortion are real and yes, in the right time and place, effective?

    By the way, I’m not “just” blowing hot air. But, since you know everything about everybody, I assumed you would know that, too.

    Hmm, with an ounce of humility, who knows what you could do for the world.

  54. Anonymous says:

    Uh, no, arm chair ethicist…

    If you’d bothered to read the post I responded to, you’d see why I had said what I did about those pictures. It was THAT comment and the tone of that comment that I was responding to.

    You were the one who decided to attack me personally.

    I spoke about one particular subset of prolifers, not ALL prolifers. I never said I was the only one doing anyting. YOU said that. YOU are the one making huge assumptions here, when you don’t have the first clue about who I am or what I know or what I’ve done.

    And you have a hell of a nerve talking about humility. As if you even know what experiences I have and WHY I have such a huge amount of love for the girls I work with.

    As if you could ever, ever begin to know, you pompous, insufferable, holier-than-thou Pharisee. As if. As if you could ever know. What do you know about anything?

    What have YOU done? You do nothing but attack me personally, yet you never say what YOU do.

    Let me guess. A big, fat NOTHING.

  55. ukok says:

    I really don’t want to have to delete comment’s but if this antagonistic attitude prevails, then I’m not going to have much choice about it, am I?

    No more, please. It’s easy to let our fingers run away with us when we are empassioned about something, but we have to be very careful not to be intentionally hurtful.

    I think i’m going to consider closing the comments box, I’ll wait a little while in case ace wants to respond, but really, I think that this discussion has gone about as far as it can go.

    God Bless.

  56. Anonymous says:

    yeah…sure…

    I’m antagonistic, but A.C.E. isn’t…

    A.C.E. is allowed to attack me personally, is allowed to lie about me, allowed to say horribly hurtful things to me, but that’s okay, because he agrees with you 100% about everything, therefore he’s more human than me…

    How blind you are. How very, very blind you are. What do you know about anything? You are so quick to tell me I’m prochoice and not prolife because I won’t agree with you about using a set of pictures, but you don’t know anything. Do you have any idea how hurtful that is to me? Do you have any idea what being prolife and living that position cost me? Do you? No. But you’ll label me and call me a liar and allow others to do the same because it makes you feel – I don’t know – it must make you feel something good, though, because I can’t imagine why else you’d do it.

    You are an ugly, ugly soul. A hideous, selfish, prideful, shriveled little half-dead soul. God help you.

  57. ukok says:

    I’m not blind at all, I clearly see the venomous nature that you post with, and I will not tolerate it. I pray that you are more sympathetic to those who you meet in your work,than to the strangers that you know nothing about from all the ends of the earth. God Bless you and give you peace.

    No more comments.

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